Third Rail

"I pulled a few quotes out of an online article that I think are appropriate. They seem to sum up the spirit on the street.

"The first quote is a very strong point made by a Muslim woman who lost her son on 9/11: "Why are we [Muslims] paying the price? Why are we being ostracized? Our loved ones died [on September 11]. . . America was founded on the grounds of religious freedom," and opposition to the cultural center "is un-American. It's unethical. And it is wrong."

"From here on I confess I summed up and read between the lines a bit. (If you'd like to see the exact quotes, they're available at http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100820/ap_on_re_us/us_nyc_mosque_families) The counter-points seem to go as follows: (A) "It is unfair to persecute the {Muslim community], however," [we're willing to overlook that.] (B) "We're not telling them not to practice their religion [we're just dictating where they can practice it.] (C) "The fact is that Islam does not coexist well with other religions, and you can't separate that from Islam. If that sounds intolerant on my part, that's too bad." [I am comfortable being a bigot.]"

"You know, I wish I had something witty to say. Sadly, I don't. The 'otherization' of American Muslims is a disturbing trend, but not one that should be surprising in America. Islam has replaced Communism as the big boogey-man in the 21st Century. "

"We know that these things are wrong. To demonize an entire people/system of belief, and start treating those people like second class citizens is wrong."

"I would like to ask a very specific question; why is it offensive to build, what amounts to a JCC or YMCA, two and half blocks away from ground zero? I have asked this many, many times and I have never gotten a straight answer. People say it's like if Nazis built a Hitler museum next to a former concentration camp, and I'm tired of these arguments! I don't want to know what it's like. I want to know what it is! Why is this offensive, but all the porn/sex shops around the site is not offensive? I would like one of the people who are against it to explain to me why they think it's offensive."

"I learned that Muslims have a history of building mosques in lands they have 'conquered.' Makes you wonder why they want to build one 2 blocks from Ground Zero, where almost 3000 U.S. citizens were murdered by radical Muslims. I have nothing against the religion, but I am against this mosque being built and I don't care if you agree or not it's my opinion. I'm against the mosque and that doesn't make me biased. It's not like I'm saying 'oh, they should build a catholic church there instead.' Put the freaking Burlington back there!"

"First of all; No matter how many times you call it a mosque, it still isn't a mosque. It's a community center, with places to cook and play sports, and with a space set aside for prayer. A mosque is the exact same thing as a church; a building that's exclusively for prayer and worship. Saying that adding prayer space for Muslims into a building makes it a mosque is like saying that putting a chapel in a hospital makes it a church; that despite all the fancy medical equipment and doctors it won't 'disguise' the purpose of the building as being anything other than a place of worship.  

"Then you say "Put the freaking Burlington back there", as if the city has some sort of choice in whether the actual company that owns the building sells it or re-opens the warehouse? For someone who touts the free market, you don't seem to understand it."

"I wasn't going to mention it, but there are a bunch of strip  clubs on the "hallowed" Ground Zero earth -- including one that I only  found out about while visiting the Ground Zero site. Should I hold my  breath for the protests?"

"Ground Zero is the perfect place for a mosque. What better way to uphold the U.S.'s values of freedom opposed by terrorists?"

"But they aren't building a mosque! It's a community center four blocks away! It's not even on ground zero! People should look up the facts before denouncing something they don't completely understand."

"Setting aside space for Muslims to pray does not make a building a mosque  any more than, adding a chapel to a hospital makes it a church."

"You used that analogy before, cheater!"

"We've all used that before! Following this line of logic, the Campus Center counts as a mosque."

"If I can just go back to what [Anonymous] said; One of the more common things I hear when the subject comes up is the idea that, because of the number of people who died in and around the attacks of 9/11 (which is to say; not only those who were killed in the attacks themselves, but also the large number of those who died in the resulting rescue efforts), and because that group is so diverse, that it would be disrespectful for a single religious group to establish a place of worship in that area -- as if to imply that particular group might then have some sort of spiritual monopoly on the memory of 9/11."

"Those people who know better are quick to point out there are churches and, yes, in fact, even a mosque that already exist in the neighborhood, and have done since before September 11, 2001. Or, if you prefer, since before December 1970 -- when the North Tower was completed. These institutions are generally hand-waved away under the aegis of some sort of unspoken grandfather-clause, but that in-and-of itself leads to some interesting questions. Why is this religion more preferable than that? How close is 'too close'? How soon is 'too soon'? If it's ok to have an old mosque there, why isn't it ok to build a new one? If it's ok to have an old mosque there, why isn't it ok to build a new building with a prayer room? Why is it ok in America to fall back on Jim Crow style social justice?"

"So, it does pretty much boil down to a heaping helping of that old time xenophobia."

"I hate ignorance."

"RAAHHHHH!"

"NADIA SMASH! NADIA SMASH!"

"As someone that doesn't particularly care about religion, I'm one of the folks that said it isn't appropriate for any religious institution to be there. I still hold that to be the case. No church, temple, mosque, or other place of worship should exist that close - within plain sight - to Ground Zero. However, since these already exist, it would be wrong (and likely illegal) to force the existing institutions to move. Unless you are suggesting that the church, mosque, and whatever else is in the area be demolished, I believe that's why "hand waving" is acceptable. I haven't been in the area recently, I can't remember expressly what is already within eyesight besides a church."

"That said, I don't think a community center - regardless of who sponsors it - is a negative thing. After reviewing Park51's website (http://blog.park51.org/) I have found only one thing that I believe to be in poor taste, and only for the sake of redundancy. I don't see why a September 11th memorial is needed when it is so close to the actual site. If someone wanted to mourn so badly, they could walk two blocks and do it in person. I don't feel that having a prayer room is a negative thing; all people should be allowed to practice whatever they believe, as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's personal rights."

"The worst part of this discussion is it contains mostly people that agree, while no one else comments. I would like to have something to say about Andrew's comment, but I agree with all of it. I really do wish some of the people against it would speak up."

"Ok, well, here's a thought; As someone that doesn't particularly care about religion myself, I don't feel that any religious establishment should be anywhere. I'd be perfectly happy if i never saw another building consecrated in the name of some arbitrary interpretation of a codified oral tradition."

"That said, since people are determined to waste the space one way or the other, I normally say have-at-it."

"Sometimes I can't, though. http://www.911christiancenter.com/ This should not be permitted, but there's hardly a whisper about it. I'm not sure I'm willing to give this one the same latitude as other "waste-of-space" institutions, however, because this is treading dangerously close to being a hate group."

"That's disgusting."

"FYI: there is a (Greek orthodox?) church immediately across the street from Ground Zero -- the front of the church is on Broadway across the street from the Au Bon Pain that is next to J&R Music World. The church is ringed by a metal fence and is right beside the Staples across from J&R Music World."

"I don't know about you guys but I'm offended by Au Bon Pain, how dare they build an over priced (if yummy) but massively overpriced sandwich shop right next to THE HALLOWED GROUND tm. I find it offensive."

"That's awfully arbitrary of you, Mike, to single out the sandwich shop. There's plenty of offensive music in the world. Maybe there shouldn't be a record store? And do you know how Nazi's killed so many people so efficiently? Memos. I think letting a Staples operate there is in poor taste, considering the strong Jewish population in New York."

"Of course, I'm being a bit absurdist here; but the point I'm getting at is this -- Without stepping into "slippery-slope" territory, I think it's legitimate to examine what is and is not a fair and protected expression of First Amendment rights."

"I don't believe that the presence of a community center poses a threat to the safety of the general public, but I think that hosting a group that spreads slander and libel (such as "Islam is a wonderful religion... for PEDOPHILES!" and "A False Religion that is About Hate and Death" and, even worse "The Coming Showdown between Islam and Christianity") against any group, encourages at-best; resentment, and at-worst; violence. THAT constitutes a danger to the safety of the public-at-large, and THAT is what I have a problem with."

"Marty, that 911 Christian center website is so awful. People forget that even if it was a 'mosque' being put there, it is in the constitution that we all have the right to worship whatever deity, follow any religion we choose. So legally, there can be a mosque there. Not that anyone plans on putting a mosque on Ground Zero."